You Decide #7
Monday, May 23, 2005
So, here is a hand I faced in NLHE, .05/.10. You tell me, did I mess up? Did I play it perfectly? Post a comment.
I was dealt Ac Kc, and called $0.10. Two players call behind me, and the two buttons called as well. Five players in the hand.
The flop is 6c 3c Jc. SB and BB check. I check. Bettor to my right bets $0.50. All fold. I call.
The turn is 5s. I check, Bettor bets $0.50. I call.
The river is 6s. I check. Bettor bets $0.50. I raise it to $1.30. Bettor re-raises to $3.50. I go all-in, knowing full well that he only has another $1.25. He calls and shows a rivered full house, J6 in the pocket. My nut flush was crushed. So was my FT bankroll.
So what do you think? I usually don't slowplay, but I thought I was in like flint. Was I wrong to do so? Should I have simply called on the river? Leave a comment and share your thoughts. Poker on!
Now, as an aside, I finally busted out on Full Tilt. I believe my $100 lasted about a month. $100 for a month is not a ridiculous amount of money to lose, but I am woefully behind on my goal to end the year up $1200 ($100 per mo.) Once I deposit in a new site, that'll bring my winnings down as well (I consider any deposit a loss until I cash out and make it a win). But, I've been up and down before. It looks like UB is the next site on my bonus whore tour. That way, I can join DNasty13 and (possibly) SteelerJosh in a Limit Challenge. Details to follow.
posted by Jordan @ 8:20 PM,
- At 11:02 PM, doubleas said...
Without being results oriented, I would have reraised the flop or turn. If he only has a draw, you want to get his money in before he misses. He probably would've still called and you probably would've had a bad beat story instead of this.
- At 1:13 AM, Lou Ford said...
Since you left out the position you were in during the hand, I am assuming you were either UTG or UTG+1.
The first mistake was not raising pre-flop, especially from early position. As always, you don't get these strong hands often, so you want to try and get the money in with them.
A raise probrably would have gotten out the J6, but as fishy as Full Tilt is, if the J6 was suited, I could see a call there.
Ignoring pre-flop play, the smooth-call on the flop would suggest you were intending on check-raising on the turn or river. Since you have no idea what the player raising into you has, it's difficult to place them on a range of hands and makes check raising difficult on the turn if a scary card comes(pairing the board in this example). By the player betting, he is getting more information then you have available. Your simple call indicates that more than likely, you have either pair with a good draw, slowplaying the flush, or playing two pair/set passively to see the turn and river for cheap. It would have probrably been best to check-raise there, or lead out. Leading out would give you an indication of where they were at. A half-pot size bet is usually good, however online this is usually thought to indicate weakness. A raise behind you is what you would want in that case, and with your adversary having two pair, you may have possibly been raised. In that case, you know your opponent likes his hand but the question then is how much. If the player was tight, you can easily raise again. Loose, you can just call and milk him some more on the turn.
Based on your pre-flop action, leading out on the flop would have been best. It would provide you more information, so you can make better decisions on later rounds.
In regards to the turn, ignoring my critique of the play before and everything was played the way it actually went out, I think you cannot simply smooth-call here. You need to check-raise in this spot. I imagine the player would raise all in at this point if he is a weak player. This is, ultimately, the goal. A check-call indicates weak turn play, and ultimately tight-passive play altogether. This was one of the bigger mistakes, but not the worse.
Once the river came, you no longer had the nuts. It's unfortunate that this occurred, but it happens. It's a scary card, and if someone was drawing to the boat, they may have made it. My opinion, the check-raise here is not a good play. It would have been better if you lead out for some sort of value bet, and if you were raised, you could merely call with your nut flush, and maybe save some money in the end. Since you had no information from any of the previous rounds, you had no idea where you stood in this hand. Very few hands would call an all in in this situation. Most good players would fold two pair here, and assuming this player is half-decent, it would become aware that you have something better than two pair. The only hands that will call you here are worse flushes and full-house/4-of-a-kind. you can really narrow down hands that decent players would limp in with that made a flush on the flop. These hands are: 4c5c, 4c7c, 5c7c, 5c8c, 7c8c, 8c9c, 7c9c, 8cTc, 9cTc, 7cTc, Qc9c, QcTc, Qc8c, and Qc7c. This makes 14 different flushes, all that you can beat. Ignoring suits, there are 6 different full houses possible. These include, 65, 63, J6, 33, 55, JJ. Now, in regards to suits, there are 25 different hands that would make a full house. Based on the pre-flop and action on the flop, you can't eliminate any hand unless you believe the player would not limp in with say, for example, 63o or J6o. Also, you must take into consideration the possible 4-of-a-kind, which adds 1 hand to the possible mix. So, without removing any hands, which you really can't since the action did not provide any evidence to do so(for example a raise on the flop probrably would have forced any 65 out of the hand, as well as pocket 5s), you were looking at 40 hands calling this check-raise on the river in this situation. Out of these hands, you will win 14 times versus losing 26. The check raise was a bad move. You should have lead out and called the raise that would have occurred.
I apologize if this comes off as harsh, not meant to be that way. I just think the hand was misplayed from the start, and lead to you losing the hand.
- At 8:47 AM, HighOnPoker said...
Both astute comments. I usually don't slowplay a hand like this, but at the time I wanted to change up my play.
Clearly, I overvalued my flopped nut flush. I assumed that my opponent was being aggressive with TPTK or a smaller flush. When the river came down, I realized that I could be facing a full house, but at that point, I was mentally committed to my hand, another error on my part. If I could do it again, I still would not have raised pre-flop, but I would have re-raised on the flop or turn. Double A, you make a great point when you say that I should have put more money in before he missed his hand. I never thought about that aspect. Lou Ford, you weren't too harsh. I still say a pre-flop raise would have been a mistake. I would have pushed out all of my competition. But then again, I would have been setting the pace of the hand from then on. And besides, a quick .20 win is better than my abysmal loss.
Thats for the comments, guys. It's much appreciated.
- At 12:38 PM, Lou Ford said...
Also, you may have been curious how I came to your site.
In the post about Pauly's 'Bon Voyage' game, this site was listed. Then your hand #7 popped my curiosity. Usually, I would just be a lurker but I thought I could lend some insight on the mistakes I thought were made.
I am curious as to why you would limp with AKs in that situation preflop though? There are certain situations where I would limp, but this is certainly not one of them(god my tone seems condescending, need to work on that). AKs, just like any hand, gets worse as more players play. You are looking at a better opportunity to win with less players in the field, and limping in invites more players. Narrowing the field increases your chances to win. When running a simulation, you discover that when you are heads-up with AKs, you will beat a random hand 66% of the time, and as you get more people involved in the pot, your percentage decreases. For example, when you are against 4 other players(as in your hand) you will only win 35% of the time in simulations. Now, of course, this is assuming all players stay till the river, but the point is clear. You want to narrow the field with strong hands, as they are more likely to hold up. You want to get paid off too, but you also want to win the hand.
- At 2:34 PM, HighOnPoker said...
Lou, understand that I usually do not limp with AK. But I am sure you will agree that sometimes you need to change up your play, or else everyone will know what you are doing. When I had AKs, I felt like calling because of a few reasons. Simulations aside, AK is a drawing hand. If the flop came and there was no A, K or clubs (I had AK of clubs) I would have to fold to any raises. So, to raise pre-flop only builds a pot that I might have to abandon. I didn't raise because I wanted to be able to get away from the AK cheaply if I missed the flop. As it turns out, I hit the flop hard, so I decided that I wanted to extract as much money as possible from the players. I was UTG, with two players after me. The player to my left bet after I checked, and all other players folded. I thought he had a flush, or top pair-top kicker, or maybe top pair-high flush draw. I was wrong, and in the end it cost me money. Even so, I disagree that you always want to thin the crowd with AKs. I could have been playing against someone with a smaller flush, or with any of the aforementioned hands, or with two pair that wouldn't hit his 4 outs. I got stuck b/c of the 6 on the river. There, I believe, lies my error. I should have called the river bet, and not re-raised, because then I would have held onto the majority of my money. You were correct earlier when you stated that the check-raise was wrong, because he would only call my raise (or worse, re-raise) if he had a monster hand. As we know, he re-raised. At that point, another $1.50 was nothing, compared to the large pot, so I called. My error, I think, was in my play on the river, but I could have avoided all of this by betting out early.
Ah, some good poker debating! Thanks for sharing. You definitely know what you are talking about. If you have time or the inclination, check out You Decide #s 1-6 and post a comment or email me. Thanks again.