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You Decide #55
Thursday, October 25, 2007

Time for some poker!

With the recent underground cardroom busts, Jamie, host of the Wall Street Game, decided to throw a underground-room stakes 1/2 NL game. I only played for about 2 and a quarter hours, but left up $45. I'd like to get a viewpoint on one particular hand. So, here we go with

You Decide #55

It's a 1/2 NL game where you have a looose reputation. You are in the BB with AK. A tight player in MP bets $7. A clever player in LP calls. I opted to call. Should I have raised? At the time, I figured I'd see a flop and move on from there.

The result, 89T. I check. The tight player bets $10. The clever player calls. I opt to call. I'm not super happy with this play either. However, the pot was $45, and I had to call $10. I thought a King or Ace could put me ahead of a lot of hands, like JJ and QQ (for the tight player). I would also know if the straight draw hit (Q or 7), since I was wary of AJ.

The turn was a King of diamonds, making two diamonds. I hit my top pair, but I opted to check. The tight player bet out $30. The clever player folded. I think I raised to $60, leaving myself about $50 behind. The tight player called.

The river was an Ace of diamonds, completing and runner runner diamond draws. It also gave me two pair. I pushed all-in, and the tight player felt pot committed.

I don't think I played this hand terribly well, but my opponent was not pleased with my call on the flop with nothing. I read her as having JJ, or possibly AJ, so I felt my play was warranted, especially given her small bets. Even so, I could use some perspective.

You'll also notice that I did not mention what she had. The first person to guess right gets a $11 entry into next week's Mookie (or, in actuality, just a $11 xfer to your Full Tilt account).

Until next time, make mine poker!

posted by Jordan @ 11:19 PM,

29 Comments:

At 9:28 AM, Blogger pokherforlife said...

surely she had TT

 
At 9:29 AM, Blogger pokherforlife said...

Doh!! don't i look like the idiot... it seems like you won the pot, so it couldn't have been TT

Let's go w/ AT instead

 
At 10:03 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

AQ or AT.

--fidobuster.

 
At 10:28 AM, Blogger Short-Stacked Shamus said...

Good puzzle. I'll take QQ.

 
At 10:31 AM, Blogger Gydyon said...

She had QQ (or JJ and was being stubborn with a draw).

Yeah, you kinda mangled this IMO.

Reraise preflop and c-bet the flop.

If you get to the turn and think you're good, you have to push, not minraise. You shouldn't be leaving an option to fold on the river with 80 in the pot and only 50 behind, you were committed when you decided to see a turn.

 
At 10:42 AM, Blogger BadBlood said...

Seems like you had about $127 in your stack before the hand?

I like the re-raise preflop as well. Sure you'll pot-commit yourself with a c-bet, but you're pretty short stacked at that point.

I guess I'm not thrilled with the post-flop check-call based on that board texture. UNLESS of course you've got a good read that they have JJ or QQ, but that's tough to do I think.

If in fact the other player had JJ or QQ, then his play is horrible on the flop and you took appropriate advantage.

I think my bottom line point is that if you're not re-raising pre-flop from EP with AK, then I think letting the hand go on that flop may be the most normal play given standard conditions. But with you being there and having reads, then I can see standard conditions not being 100% applicable.

For the tight player to call the check-raise, I'll guess KJ, just to be different.

 
At 10:50 AM, Blogger STeelerJosh said...

JJ and she liked the flop with an OESD and bet for some value. She was scared of the K on the turn and bet to defend. The river Ace was a crying call.

 
At 11:02 AM, Blogger madbrooklyn said...

Can I add a comment that may affect people's guesses on the hand?

Mary

 
At 11:09 AM, Blogger Fuel55 said...

AQ or AT is my guess.

You played the hand pretty passively so villian could really have just about anything though. Not sure if villian is capable of three bullets?

PS Love the sequence number ...!

 
At 11:16 AM, Blogger jamyhawk said...

I always raise with AK. Find out where you are at... You got enough comments on how to play post flop.

The K didn't scare a tight player? Maybe had K10. That's my guess to bet so much on the turn.

 
At 12:32 PM, Blogger StB said...

8 8. you busted her set

 
At 12:42 PM, Blogger lj said...

stb, how does two pair bust a set?

you make a point of saying she is a tight player, but i like her for JT or AT.

i sort of like the flat call w/ AK. you can get away cheap if you miss the flop (or you can stay in cheap if the cbet looks weak?) but if you raise pf and then miss and she has QQ or JJ and bets out the pot you're rather fucked.

 
At 1:49 PM, Blogger Jordan said...

So far, no one has guessed her cards correctly. Based on her tightness in the past and my cards, I put her on JJ or QQ, and possibly AJ. I was wrong.

Mary (aka Loona), feel free to add some more info on the hand.

I think most of you realized that my preflop and post-flop strategies were out of whack. If I'm going to limp preflop, I should fold if I miss the flop. LJ makes that point very well in her last post. It keeps you from losing a lot with AK unimproved. If I want to be aggressive with AK, then I should've raised preflop, which may have changed the post-flop action in a way that benefited me...or not. We still don't know what she had. I'll leave the contest open. $11 to whoever can guess her cards. I'll post her cards probably tomorrow or tonight after 5pm.

 
At 1:52 PM, Blogger BadBlood said...

OK, you're tricking us with this "tight" player moniker.

Suited connectors: 89, 9T

And if so, horribly played on that player's part. :)

 
At 1:56 PM, Blogger 23skidoo said...

She has 77 or TJ sooted?

IMO thats a typical you hand.

 
At 2:04 PM, Blogger Joe (aka Unimpressed) said...

She had the powerhouse J8 or J9.

 
At 2:08 PM, Blogger madbrooklyn said...

Badblood pretty much read my mind - IMHO I don't consider W to be a tight player at all.

Mary

 
At 2:29 PM, Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

I will go with T7 sooooted.

Btw I think raising sometimes and calling sometimes with AK is a good strategy in general. I don't believe in any strategy that says "always" play certain cards in a certain way.

And I think your check-call on the flop was totally bad and clearly a -EV move over time. I'm not saying I would never make a check-call with AK and just two overcards, but on that kind of a connected, somewhat high card flop, calling with overs there is just asking to get donked.

Nice post, looking forward to the $11 transfer.

 
At 3:03 PM, Blogger CzechRazor said...

I don't like your line at all.

I probably stick a somewhat larger than pot sized raise in preflop since my AK is out of position. If I have this hand I'm more than happy to take this dwn preflop from the BB position.

But since you just called ...

Check fold the flop. Why are you overcalling here out of position when you said the LP player is tricky? Really bad.

I don't like min-raising on the turn with the amount of chips left behind versus the size the pot will be on the river, either.

OK, time to guess her hand.

If she's a really tight player I can't see her betting into two people on that flop without having some type of hand. The bets are like half the pot, too.

That's either two pair scared of a made hand or overcards c-betting poorly, in my opinion.

Since she's on the tighter side, I'll say 9-10 suited.

 
At 3:42 PM, Blogger TripJax said...

I say either King Ten or Ten King. Doh!

 
At 3:51 PM, Blogger Jordan said...

And the winner is...BadBlood. Blood, send me an email (using the link in the tab at the top of my website) with your FT info.

Wendy had 9T (I think suited, but not diamonds).

Mary doesn't think that Wendy is tight, and she is probably right, but whenever I think Wendy isn't tight, I tend to end up making bad calls against her...before I suck out. It's a thing we do.

I definitely don't like my play in this hand, but I do think the play is somewhat justified based on the JJ read. Even so, the flop call was pretty speculative.

So, yeah, bad play by me. Thanks for the input folks. It seems like I should've raised preflop or folded on the flop.

If I raise preflop, she probably folds. If she doesn't, I continuation bet the flop and she raises, losing me a lot of money. That is the major risk to raising preflop.

If I call the flop and check-fold the flop, I only lose $7. To me, this is the best possible scenario. So, I'm going with call preflop, check-fold the flop.

Do you preflop raisers agree? Now that we know she has 9T, we can guess that she would fold preflop, but she sees me as super loose. Plus, she may've had a hand that wouldn't fold to a re-raise. So, what do you all think?

 
At 4:14 PM, Blogger lj said...

ha! i'm w/ mary, i didn't for a second think it was wendy!

i don't see her folding to a raise pf unless you are raising huge, b/c she's still gonna have position. could have been a very different hand if you raise pf, cause if you bet out you're probably gonna get check raised (as you write in above comment) and then she's taking down a decent size pot.

 
At 6:36 PM, Blogger CzechRazor said...

Ah, congrats Badblood. You took two guesses versus me saying exactly 9-10 suited, though :P

 
At 9:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"on that kind of a connected, somewhat high card flop, calling with overs there is just asking to get donked." -hoy

actually, folding is laying down to a donk hand most of the time, so it was a good call

 
At 1:03 PM, Blogger Jordan said...

True, Czech, and I considered that too, but I didn't specify in the rules how many guesses you can make. Sorry.

On a side note, I find it very interesting how different people see Wendy. I will have to adjust my read of her.

 
At 2:19 PM, Blogger CzechRazor said...

actually, folding is laying down to a donk hand most of the time, so it was a good call

lol ... not really.

If you want to float the flop heads up out of position, maybe ... but even then it's a very aggressive play without a solid read.

Once an LP player flat calls right behind the intiial bettor, I think folding is the best option because you're probably not squeezing anyone out with a raise.

What's your play if you just call and something like another low card comes off? Or anything besides an ace or king, really? Exactly.

You'd either have to donk bet out or now try a check raise which requires a lot of your stack going into the pot. Bad line.

 
At 8:46 PM, Blogger Alan aka RecessRampage said...

In regards to the preflop strategy with AK, what Hoy said. I personally don't like the flop call you made but what I hate more is the stupid flop bet of $10 into a $21 pot. If you raised preflop, you gotta represent a hand. And in her case, she made top pair. If you're not gonna bet top pair with authority to define your hand, you shouldn't be raising from MP with suited connectors. At the very least, she's gotta define her hand so that other overcards will have to fold. Again, I don't like your call but you had a read and went with it. I don't think anyone can fault you for doing that. The only danger there is if you're domimated on the flop with a hand like A-10 or K-10, if the other hand hits, you could get in trouble. But again, at that point, you have to trust your reads.

 
At 2:03 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"What's your play if you just call and something like another low card comes off? Or anything besides an ace or king, really? Exactly."

What's your point? Pot odds ...

 
At 10:02 AM, Blogger CzechRazor said...

What's your point? Pot odds ...

Haha. Pot odds to do what, exactly? That flop is awful for AK and we're playing out of position. This is a no brainer - overcalling is bad here in the long run.

 

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