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You Decide #45

When it rains, it pours. I was in a 180-person SNG, $20+2 (actually, I'm still in it), when I was dealt QQ in middle position in the fifth hand. I didn't have much in the way of reads, yet, which really flavors this hand. I'm up to 1580 already in EP, so I raise from 20 to 80. Two players fold and the next player, JBWit, raises to 200 total. I do know one thing about JBWit. In the first five hands, he played one, limping and then folding after the flop. Everyone folds to me, and I opt to call.

The flop is 9s Js 5c. I check and JBWit bets 200 into the 430 pot. I raise to 460 total (260 on top), and he pushes all-in. If I call, I'm just about all-in myself. I think for a minute and decide to fold.


Stupid play, or smart caution? Do tell...

posted by Jordan @ 9:46 PM,

10 Comments:

At 10:49 PM, Blogger TwoDiamondPhillips said...

Sounds Like Ace spades, Jack Hearts for JBWit. but you need to feel the situation for yourself. Too tough to call from way back where I am sitting.

 
At 11:59 PM, Blogger WillWonka said...

For what its worth, I'm folding as well.

 
At 1:16 AM, Blogger Poor Tom said...

no problem with the fold - what could he have that you can beat? unless he's a known maniac or fish, you're folding.

personally i don't like your check-raise though. most of the time in that situation i'm betting the flop - given you were re-raised pre-flop you can already assume he's fairly strong, and will usually bet the flop if checked to. so his flop bet doesn't really tell you if he missed with AK or if you're dead to AA, KK or JJ. QQ is obviously possible but unlikely. I can't ever put him on AJ there, or much else.

you're better IMHO to lead out in that situation and maybe fold if raised, than to check-raise. check-raising, you're basically paying twice as much to find out the same information. if he hadn't re-raised pre-flop the checkraise would be fine.

 
At 7:43 AM, Blogger Pokerwolf said...

I don't mind the fold there at all. You can't tell what he has because you don't really have a read. My knee-jerk reaction is AA/KK, but he could simply have a pair of jacks or a flush draw.

I'm surprised you check-raised, especially given that you haven't seen the guy play a lot of hands. It's not a bad play, especially if you think he might have folded, but as Tom stated, he re-raised you on the flop, so he has a quality hand of some sort.

What was your image at the time? Had you played a lot of pots yourself or did you gain your chips on a few hands? People are more inclined to look up an aggressive player who plays a lot of pots, so that might have been part of his motivation as well.

 
At 9:07 AM, Anonymous Tom said...

I'm putting him on a very strong hand here. I'm thinking it's AA, KK, or JJ. I guess he could also have 99 or AsKs but putting your whole life on the line with a flush draw and overs is eh... I can't see 99 repopping that much, either.

You said he had previously just played one hand by limping and folding to a flop bet.

He doesn't have AJ unless he's hyper-aggro.

I think the better line might be to lead for 2/3 the pot and fold to a big raise if you really think you're beat here.

You lost 660 chips on this hand when you could have reduced that loss.

Also, your raise is essentially a min-raise which I view as pretty bad. If you're going to check/raise when the pot has already grown, you need to commit yourself and be putting him to the test, not vice versa.

If you play the %, you're beaten here most times. Good learning hand for you.

 
At 9:28 AM, Blogger HighOnPoker said...

So far, it seems like my fold was justified. I can definitely see what a bunch of you mean when you say I should have led out with a bet. My concern was that if I do that, he may just flat call. Then what do I do on the turn? I figured that a check/raise would show that I was strong, and then anything he did thereafter was a clear sign of his strength. Of course, when he pushed, I stared at the screen trying to will myself not to press the call button. I didn't, as you can see, because I kept saying to myself, "You asked him what he had, and he told you. Now listen to him!" It's sometimes easier said than done.

So, are you all sure that betting out of position is a good idea? If he has a monster, wouldn't he slowplay it (just call), leaving me with little concrete information. Then on the turn, I'd have to probably check and fold. I dunno. This one was tricky for me.

Oh, and Wolf, we were in the 5th hand of the SNG and I only played one, where I believe I was a blind and one postflop with a bet. So there wasn't much to read from on his end.

 
At 10:24 AM, Anonymous Tom said...

It would be silly to slowplay just an overpair on that board, Jordan. It's pretty coordinated.

It goes back to what I said about your previous YD post. If a third spade comes and you lead out big trying to rep a flush, he can't feel comfortable calling a bet like that with one more street to come.

 
At 5:51 PM, Blogger HighOnPoker said...

I don't get what you are saying, Tom. First off, who slowplayed? I check-raised, which is different. The check-raise conveys more strength than just a bet out of position. I wanted to test him and see if he had it or not. His re-raise told me he wanted to get his money all-in, so he probably had it. If not KK or AA, he hit a set.

Now, let's say he checks the flop. I'm betting that turn, no matter what comes out, basically to find out where I am at that point in the hand.

Really, I was playing the QQ for set-value preflop, and then once I missed, I thought I'd test his continuation bet.

I asked a question with the check-raise, "Do you really have it?" He answered with the all-in re-raise, "Hell yeah." So, I listened and acted accordingly. I dare say that most amatuers (not bloggers and readers, who think more critically about the game) would just push preflop or bet big on the flop, assuming they are in good shape with pocket Queens. I was trying to avoid that.

 
At 11:13 AM, Anonymous Tom said...

So, are you all sure that betting out of position is a good idea? If he has a monster, wouldn't he slowplay it (just call), leaving me with little concrete information.

You posed a question and I answered it.

It would be silly for him to flat call as a slowplay maneuver if you had bet out of position.

No?

 
At 8:04 PM, Anonymous dangpoker guy said...

true, true, i agree with that. Plus you have the added benefit of drawing another card to a set if he just flat calls and that keeps you alive in the hand/gives you a chance at the pot (even if a small one) . . .

 

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